Is Anything Real In Paid Advertising?

[00:05.4]
welcome back to "Is Anything Real in Paid Advertising?" The show where agency founders unpack what's real and what's just noise in the world of funnels, founders and full blown marketing chaos. I'm your host, Adam W. Barney, and today's guest is someone who doesn't just talk growth, he tests it on himself first.

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Patrick Cumming is the head of marketing at Client Boost, where they treat their agency like a client and put every tactic through the fire before passing it on. Patrick, welcome. Let's jump right in. In an industry full of smoke and mirrors, is "eating your own dog food" the last real marketing strategy left standing?

[00:45.7]
Yeah, that, that's a great question. I think for marketing agencies, it's a challenge, right? Because when it comes to paid advertising, it is an expensive game and I think there's no two ways about that.

[01:04.7]
So, if you want to see success on a paid social channel like LinkedIn ads, for example, you would probably want anywhere above $3k a month on that to make it work, just to feed it enough data to even reach enough people for that to be a viable channel.

[01:24.3]
So I think it's easy for me to say more agencies should eat their own dog food. And I do think they should to the degree that, you know, that they're selling services that they're not using for themselves, that's kind of a red flag. But I think for the younger agencies where you've got somebody that's maybe spent 10 years at a different agency or in house or something like that actually doing the execution and they're in their first couple of years of building the agency where they don't have the funds for it.

[01:56.5]
You can be a bit more creative and wild with the strategies that you use. But eventually, if you're a paid ads agency, in my opinion, you should be getting some form of acquisition through paid ads. So for us the key areas of business are paid ads and SEO and that forms probably 75% plus of the channels, the main acquisition channels, for us.

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it's definitely a strategy that I believe in. Awesome. I mean, why do you think 70 agencies skip that?

[02:34.1]
The honest truth: I think so many agencies. we love the honest truth here. this is going to sound a little bit mean because, I've spent a lot of time talking to CMOs, VPs of marketing, heads of marketing, that I've worked with agencies in the Past.

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And I would say every single one of them has been burned by an agency. And the reason for that is that there are lots of agencies that are good at talking a good game, but not so good at the actual execution side of things. And part of that is, you know, some of them will maybe try and do too many services and that they will have a little bit of an arrogance that they know more than other people know.

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And it will be based on the fact that they've read how things should be done perfectly. And so if you went through the HubSpot University and followed the "here's how to run LinkedIn ads successfully" Playbook from the HubSpot University, you will then think you know how to run a successful campaign and so they'll kind of sell that.

[03:42.5]
But anybody that's actually doing this stuff every day knows that it's way more complicated than that. And so I think what kind of tends to happen is that Can we go back to the original question?

[03:59.0]
Actually I've kind of lost my thread. I mean it was about your goal with Client Boost is to be an agency that uses its own playbook and why do so many agencies skip that step? And how does that hurt them?

[04:16.1]
Yeah, for sure. So what happens is the reason they skip it is because they don't actually know how to make it work. And this is why they kind of churn and burn so much, is they don't use it for themselves because they don't actually believe in the channel. And so for me, that's why it's such a problem because if you're going to sell a service, then you should believe in that service.

[04:39.7]
And so for me, when I first stepped into this role at ClientBoost, that's why it was so important to me. It's like we need to live and breathe this. And we do. Right? Right. And I'm sure you could provide a good example of a client and you don't have to share anything that opens up NDAs or specific client names, but there's got to be a client who you saw that how you stress test the playbook internally.

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It's helped them learn faster, it's helped them accelerate they achieve more rather than what you mentioned going through. how many clients have I worked with over the years who in the last calendar year, they've used three different agencies to do the same, different thing.

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And none of them have hit that mark in the center. So I can imagine there have been clients you've brought through the door who you can prove out tangibly that they accelerated to a place of success so much quicker because you use that stress test.

[05:41.4]
Stress-tested playbook. Yeah, for sure. And so I need to answer this from two perspectives. which is one, and this is more on the paid social side of things. I think it's easier to stress test Google Ads because it's a last-touch channel.

[06:00.1]
And so it probably gets a disproportionate amount of weight assigned to it in terms of what it actually brings to the full customer journey. But so if we take LinkedIn ads for example, and the example that you've just given, I'm not surprised that a company's churned through three agencies before actually settling on one that can do it.

[06:22.5]
The problem there is measurement. LinkedIn ads and just paid social in general is really, really hard to measure. And so I think the place or the tangle that a lot of agencies get themselves into, because I've heard these stories, I've also worked in agencies where I've seen the sales team do this, is that they kind of promise that they have the playbook that's definitely 100%, going to work.

[06:49.8]
And because they want to sign the deal, they say, "yeah, we'll, we'll make this channel be performing within three months time", for example. And so the two issues, there is: one, there's never actually a conversation about how they're gonna measure success and there's never any conversation about the timeline.

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Right? And so for measuring success, especially for something like LinkedIn ads, the first three months, unless you have a program that's been running effectively for a long time, the first three months, you're really not going to have a mega impact on pipeline.

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And so that should be one of the first things that comes up in the conversation. And so you set that expectation of, okay, look, pipeline isn't going to be there in the first three months, but here's another set of metrics that we would expect to see improvement in the first three months.

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And so I think that's kind of the first issue there. in terms of the playbook, one of the other problems with that relationship, and we actually do, we focus a lot on speed at klientboost, but I think what ends up happening in those relationships is then the agencies will focus on speed too much and without the knowledge of what to actually focus on.

[08:03.4]
And so they'll just start throwing spaghetti at the wall is a common example that we like to use, and it doesn't work. Whereas the way that we approached it is say, okay, we want to make this get to a point where it's working fast.

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And so we'll look at the historic data of what's worked. we'll have an onboarding form, for example, that goes into detail about who the target audience is, what their pain points are, what their game points are, what their jobs to be done are.

[08:35.5]
And then we'll also ask lots of questions about the product and the features and benefits, and we'll dive deep into historic reviews of, and all that kind of stuff. So when we started out, we have a really, really deep understanding of the product and of the audience.

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And then what we can do is say, okay, we know that these kind of 5 ad types on LinkedIn tend to be the best for this specific objective, and these other ad types tend to be the best for this objective. So we can start out with a playbook that's already very, very strong from the beginning.

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And this is probably one final thing I would add here, and this is more to do with where maybe the execution goes wrong for some other agencies is that there's been this over-commitment from the beginning of really wanting to just say yes to everything the client says because they want to land the deal.

[09:33.6]
I fully empathize with this. It's like, okay, you know, we need to keep the lights on, we've got salaries to pay, and so we just say yes to everything. Otherwise we feel like we might lose this deal. But the problem then is when you onboard them, the client will start trying to have full creative control over stuff that goes out.

[09:53.8]
And so even if the agency did create really good creative or really good campaign angles, they will not push back when they get pushback from the client. And that means that something that maybe would have worked ends up getting watered down into something that's so either dull and boring or is so overly convoluted, it just doesn't make any sense.

[10:19.3]
And then, it doesn't land. And then what happens is the client kind of starts dictating the relationship from there because performance isn't there. And so we try and flip that from the beginning, which is, we still want this to be a collaboration, we still Know that we need to prove to you that we know what we're doing, But we'll be very direct right from the beginning.

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And one of the internal philosophies for us is very much about radical candor. We want to build a relationship where it's okay for both parties, just to be very honest. But at the end of the day, you know, with experts We test this stuff on our own marketing channels, So I'm running the same LinkedIn playbook that we recommend to the teams to use.

[11:01.7]
And I'm actually working on an updated version of that playbook based on what's worked for us in this half of this year. Okay. That I'll then pass onto the client teams. Right. And so I think that that's also where some agencies kind of go wrong a little bit, is they think what would work, they relinquish that, and it ends up not working because they're just too afraid to push back.

[11:25.5]
I love it, Patrick. I've seen that time and time again through agency client relationships where transparency isn't a part of it, tracking isn't a part of it. I know a lot of people listening probably have already looked at KleintBoost.

[11:41.0]
They see that strength with paid ads and the organic side as well, But I also have seen that your content engine is next level. Where does that strength come from? And then when you apply it to clients, how do you turn one idea, once you go through that giant pile of data, into 20, 30, 40 assets without losing quality?

[12:07.7]
Yeah, That's a great question. So I think where you start with creating, I also appreciate the positive feedback on the content engine. So thank you for that. For me, I think I'm zooming out to maybe one of the broader problems that I see in marketing at the moment, or just not even at the moment.

[12:28.9]
I've seen this throughout my career, which is too many people in marketing treat the different areas of marketing as siloed. And I kind of see a thread that kind of unites them all. And so all the best marketers really start everything with the same foundations.

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And so the same things that make a good paid campaign are the same things that create a good content marketing engine. Right? Which is I have this Venn diagram that I use, which is on the top. This is Your area of expertise.

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So this is what you know about. And then on the bottom, right. It's everything to do with your product. So that's features, benefits, etc. and then on the bottom left you have pain scans and jobs to be done of the audience. And so everything starts with just a really deep understanding of your audience and how you can help them.

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And so for me, good content really starts at the intersection of that Venn diagram, which is like talk about something that you actually know what you're talking about. Always link it back to your product, which I think is a problem. An issue that lots of companies have is they create really great top-of-funnel content, but they can never prove ROI because they're probably not getting any because it doesn't create the correct mental associations.

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Right. Because nothing gets linked back to the product or it gets loads of, loads of attention but from the wrong people because they didn't actually address the pain scans and jobs to be done, of the audience. So that's the main place really to start with content.

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I have this analogy of too many businesses are focused on how can I push my content onto the market where I kind of say you really need to pull the content from the market. And there's loads of different ways you can do that. If you're lucky enough like me to work in B2B, hanging out on communities like Exit Five is a really good place.

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Just browsing your LinkedIn feed. a good example actually I noticed recently loads of heads of marketing, CMOs, et cetera talking about how they're struggling to measure brand. I see this on LinkedIn, I see this in the Exit Five community.

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And so I'm like, okay, well I know that from our perspective we actually developed a framework for measuring brands two years ago. And so I'm like, okay. interesting. Yeah, yeah. So now's the time to launch content about that because one, it's trending, but two, it's also just super relevant for the audience, and three, it ties neatly back to our products.

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Right. And so that's kind of the foundations in place in terms of how we turn it into multiple content pieces. For us, right now, we'll probably tweak this process a little bit. But for us, the kind of core starting foundation of content for us is the podcast.

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So we have the KlientBoost Kitchen podcast. So I'll typically create a slide deck for that where I'll have some ideas for visuals that will look really good on video, but then can also be repurposed into carousels and cheat sheets for LinkedIn, et cetera.

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And so we'll get that slide deck, I'll film the podcast and then because I've done all of the groundwork that gives us two really good pieces of video content. We have a long form YouTube video, we also get that in vertical.

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So it's mobile optimized. Then we've also got supporting visuals that we can use. And so because the foundational content is of such a high caliber. And again we're following that Venn diagram where it's only talking about stuff we know about, we're relating it back to the product and we're also, you know, tackling topics that our audience actually cares about.

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Yep. This is where we can actually, you know, strategically use AI, to turn that one piece into multiple pieces that aren't, excuse my French, just like really sh*tty quality. It's actually good because.

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And again, this is another place where some agencies go wrong is try and start with AI. And so I think you just need to do the reverse: Start with the human, then AI, then bring the human in at the end. And so what we'll do is use AI to turn it into multiple video snippets, into different social media posts, into a newsletter, into a blog, etc.

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And then we'll bring the human in at the end to copy edit everything, make sure that it reads nice. It's in our tone of voice. AI didn't hallucinate any random details into the content. And then we'll publish it from there.

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So I think you described this to me when we, when we had one of our previous conversations Is this marketing maturity mountain As your framework, which I find that a fascinating platform to work off of because, as you've kind of threaded through here, it helps with product market fit, it thinks about architecting demand capture, Then it also gets into what I consider a different bucket of demand Generation, capture is different than generation, expansion, And then how do you level up the brand?

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And I think you actually mentioned super bowl level in one of our previous conversations. Where do agencies get stuck as you build that mountain though Typically? because I imagine it's built on that transparency you mentioned of that three section worksheet, You can get as much into that.

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I'm sure that's a tough thing to track down sometimes and get them to actually put onto paper. So is that where most people trip that you work with, or does it even come later in the process? Yeah, that's a, that's a really, really great question.

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it's not necessarily that that's the area where people trip so much as I don't think agencies will typically put enough thought into what's the stage of growth that the business I'm working with right now is at because the approach that you take will differ massively.

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And so a classic example is, take a creative agency or a brand agency or something like that. One of the mistakes that those agencies make when they approach paid media is that they might have smaller kind of mom and pop shop businesses, or they have lesser known SMB's, and they'll try and apply big brand.

[19:11.8]
So that's the top of the mark to maturity mountain. They'll try and apply big brand marketing to these small businesses. And what that typically leads to is very creative marketing that looks really pretty and everybody's impressed by it when it's presented in the boardroom. But when it actually goes live, it falls short because the audience is usually unable to connect to it because it's almost so creative, that it's not very easy to quickly understand, okay, what does this business actually do and how can they help me?

[19:44.7]
And so, and again, I think this probably stems from a little bit creative. So disproportionately impressed by good quality creative a lot more than the average audience member is. And so I think that's one of the issues. And so what we try and do with the marketing maturity mountain is just get an honest assessment of where the business is at so we know where we need to focus.

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And so if a business comes to us into what we call the first stage, which is product market fit, for example, it's actually a tricky place to be in, a very hard place to run paid advertising from. And so in those instances, sometimes we'll just say, look, klientboost probably isn't the right agency for you right now because what will end up happening is you will spend a lot of budget, trying to figure out how your marketing engine works.

[20:34.9]
And that's a really expensive way to waste money. that's an expensive way to break the trust factor also. Right? Yeah, yeah. And so typically what we'll do then is give them some advice and say, you know, when you get to this stage, it might make sense for you to talk to us.

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And actually what we find is that, we did this with somebody recently, they actually ended up leaving us a 5-star review on G2 just because they were so happy with the information we'd given them in the call and the transparency of just saying, look, we're not right for you. Whereas you know, when you get to the demand capture stage, which is there is existing demand for this product and it's proven, that's really when you can start, making paid ads work for you.

[21:21.7]
but at that demand capture phase, most businesses usually need a decent, you know, stream of revenue coming in. They're not just putting the keys in the, in the ignition. The engine has to have been running for a little bit.

[21:38.1]
Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. And at that stage, if you focus too much on brand and too much on demand generation, not saying that you shouldn't focus on those things, but sometimes the payoff from those can be so long it will actually negatively affect business growth to focus on them because there's existing demand that you could have captured right now that would have helped you keep the lights on.

[22:01.1]
And so I think that's why it's so important to have a framework like that in place and to accurately map somebody on it. Because without that you're at risk of running the wrong strategy. And again, I think this is also where agencies go wrong which is thinking the same playbook applies to every business and will just work if you do it correctly.

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It's not necessarily true, From my experience. Yeah, you have to diversify Even if you have multiple product lines or sets, especially with bigger companies and get there. Awesome. Patrick, this was packed with insight.

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Where can folks follow your work and check out what's cooking at KlientBoost and in the KlientBoost Kitchen. Yeah, you're testing my memory now. So the best place to find me with the freshest, freshest insights will be LinkedIn. So that's patrick-james-cumming after LinkedIn.com and then also if you go to klientboost.com/kitchen we also post the most recent recipes there.

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Have a podcast that's on YouTube and Spotify too. And also just the main Klientboost company page, we cross post a lot of the KlientBoost Kitchen content to that too. All right, listeners, you can find a lot of that posted below the video here.

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And Patrick, if someone is listening and running, let's say a "do as I say, not as I do" agency. What's your real talk advice to shift that mindset? Yeah, "do as I say, not as I do". It's tricky, right?

[23:40.3]
It depends where you're at. But I would say, at least be running one of the channels that you're selling to people. So probably Google Ads would be the easiest for most agencies. At least have some Google Ads on. Because if you don't believe in the channels, maybe pivot to channels that you do believe in or just try and have a lightweight budget, you know, lightweight retargeting on or something like that.

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Right. I dig it. Awesome. All right, well, thank you again for joining us today. Patrick on "Is Anything Real in paid advertising?", the show where we separate what's real from what's just noise. I'm Adam W. Barney Subscribe, leave a quick review, and check the show notes for links to everything that we covered today with Patrick.

[24:24.9]
But thank you again for joining. Appreciate you having me. Thank you