Is Anything Real In Paid Advertising?

[00:05.8]
Welcome back to "Is Anything Real in Paid Advertising?", the show where we unpack what's real and what's just noise in today's marketing madness. I'm your host, Adam W. Barney, and today's guest is a founder who's flipping the paid media script. Jared Tang is the founder of Gaggle Social, a B2B growth shop doubling down on long term content, sticky engagement and sustainable community building.

[00:30.1]
Not spray and pray lead magnets. He's also one of the rare folks actually questioning the ROI of Google Ads in 2025. Jared, welcome to the show. It is so great to be here. Adam, thanks so much for having me on. All right. And one of the things that I love to dig into, Jared, is getting a little bit into you've pulled back from Google Ads and you've shifted toward a content heavy LinkedIn strategy.

[00:56.1]
What triggered that decision? You know, honestly I, I think it stems back to kind of trial and error. Right? I mean as a company that started off with very little to use and is still very budget conscious, we try our hardest to not throw too much money at the wall.

[01:13.7]
Right. And hope that sticks. And one thing that I can say is the most successful Google advertising campaigns that I've ever ran or helped to run have always been, very, I guess you could say, budget insensitive. Right. That's the best way to, I think put that in reality.

[01:31.6]
It comes out to a lot of cost and a lot of effort to set up, and then a lot more back time trying to figure out what to fix, which one's working, which one's not working, why isn't it working? Which is all tricks of the trade. But as a business who needs to also be conscious of how much time they're team members are spending in specific areas, it's important for us to make sure that we are doing our due diligence, and we're actually using channels that truly work to us.

[02:00.3]
So with LinkedIn being such a business to business focused network and our focus being business to business as well as business to consumer, we're kind of spreading this out a little bit more. We're not spending as much in one spot. You know, it's that, that old, as old as time saying, you know, don't spend all your money in the same place.

[02:19.5]
It's kind of in that same vein for us. We're trying to differentiate and spread out all of our expenses that are going to lead to ROI. All right. And I know, I know something that we've talked about before is the idea that Google has become, quote, a monopolistic risk.

[02:36.1]
What kind of long term, say, instability are you trying to avoid with the way you've approached it? Yeah, I mean, I think once you find that something really works, you kind of beat it to a dead horse. Right. You keep trying and trying and trying it even when, you know it only worked situationally, and so many times, you know, how can you say like how many times can you say, right, realistically, you tried one thing once and it worked stellar, and then you tried it again and it doesn't work at all.

[03:01.4]
Right. So we kind of wanted to start foundationally as a business, ensuring that we're differentiating our channels and that we're not hanging our hats too much on one. Especially when there's so much up in the air when it comes to Google as it is. Right. I mean they're constantly under the spotlight of being a potential, you know, risk of monopolization across multiple fields.

[03:23.1]
And I feel like it's only a matter of time before that bubble pops more. And while I stand by Google and love all of my Google products and Google services, I have to say it's difficult to kind of follow down the pathway knowing that at any day the floor can ripped out from under them and in turn ripped out from under us.

[03:40.7]
Right, right. I know something else you mentioned was also a pivot to paid follower growth on LinkedIn as what you view, I would say, as a precursor to organic scale. What are the early results that you've seen with that kind of a mindset approach? Yeah, absolutely.

[03:58.1]
So we just recently hired a marketing director. Her name is Megan Richter, and she's a whip. She's super smart, really funny, really intelligent, and really good at what she's doing. And you know, that's one of the major things. And I say funny because our branding has a lot to do with trying to be comical but professional at the same time.

[04:13.9]
Yep. So one of the things that I can say, that was very interesting early on in our discussions was that we're seeing a shift in the landscape on LinkedIn where companies aren't really being followed as widely as people would like them to be followed.

[04:33.9]
It's become a little bit more like what we expect to see on Instagram, or Facebook, or TikTok, which is founder led discussions and conversations. We looked at that as an opportunity. People aren't going to invest in that area. Then that leaves more opportunity for us to grow that same area.

[04:49.3]
We're not competing for those same eyes. We're not competing with any type of AdWords constraint, in that world because it's LinkedIn and we are not necessarily in a blue ocean. But if we can create an opportunity for us to increase our following, then in turn our organic media will work harder for us in the long run.

[05:09.4]
And, you know, it's really foundationally very similar to what we looked at back in, you know, 2015ish, right, where followers were all the rave of what you needed on LinkedIn. Everybody was pushing for it. It was the, you saw it in your notifications all the time.

[05:26.2]
You know, this person's inviting you to follow, this person thinks that you'd be a good fit for their group, whatever that looks like. Right. So the way that we look at it is, you know, it sets the foundation for us for the long run. But in the same term, because of the fact that it's not widely been, I guess, utilized. It's something that we strategize on using more in the very near future.

[05:47.1]
We used it on a small A/B test to see how much success we had versus, you know, just going ahead and, you know, inviting people that already connect with us on LinkedIn, and then going ahead and saying, okay, great, well, what's our conversion rate on actually getting follows versus what's our conversion rate on the dollars that we're spending, to get followers?

[06:07.0]
And we saw a disproportionate mismatch, right, where we were able to increase following for even for a short period of time by, you know, 100 to 200, you know, per chunk. That was way more successful than spending the 20 minutes it takes to go through your followers and click Invite to follow, because there's no other trigger that makes people want to.

[06:25.8]
Until you've been in the newspaper 100 times and you've been all over Instagram a thousand times, and TikToks, you're trending in, right? That's when you start getting followers from B2B channels. So it's difficult to kind of get that same reaction that we would like to see when we, even though we know that the folks that would use our network are social users and are interested in using, you know, more, or I guess you could say differentiated platforms for their professional service work, professional service connections, their networking opportunities and more.

[06:58.3]
Right. I have to add to the conversation here, Jared, I was working at Microsoft when they bought LinkedIn, and it's incredible the evolutions that it's made over the years since Microsoft acquired them from what the capability could be.

[07:15.4]
I think there are some things, honestly, that LinkedIn leaves that could be better. The messaging platform being one piece of it that is an absolute abysmal, abysmal messaging platform to be in the middle of. When we think about working outside of that, within these realms that you were talking about before, I know you don't rely on those traditional lead magnets, whether they're white papers, PDFs, or gated guides.

[07:42.0]
Why not? I think a theory that we have really landed on has been that there are so many people fighting for the attention that lead magnets, especially on B2B channels, all kind of sound the same.

[07:57.7]
So because of that, they all kind of get the same result, which is a couple of clicks and a little bit of hope that what they're clicking into actually is what they're looking for. Because you never know anymore when it comes to these kinds of tools.

[08:12.7]
You can go ahead and think that you're clicking on an advertisement that tells you that they'll get you, you know, 100 keyboards for your whole team, right? In reality. But you need to now go through and jump through hoops to get those 100 keyboards, right? So effectively speaking, if you flip the switch there and we say, what do people really want?

[08:28.9]
What they want to learn, they want to be educated, they want to expand their knowledge in certain domains, especially in the professional services world and the business to business world. The question beckons, how do you differentiate when everybody kind of is sharing kind of the same information, right?

[08:44.8]
And there's so much out there in that. So in reality, you spend six, seven hours building something that people will hopefully download, and then you link it to something else, which takes you another, you know, two hours to do through, say, Zapier and a mixture of Mailchimp. And then before you know it, you've got your advertisement out there, but your overall investment of time and effort is, you know, 10 hours.

[09:07.8]
Your advertising costs are $300. And what do you get from it? Two leads. Right. You know, no matter what you're sharing, unless it's something that's game changing. For example, I went on to a conversation with the lead magnet that was saying that they would be able to get box tickets that you would, if you were, you know, joining this meeting, just to have a conversation.

[09:28.8]
They had a relationship, but I think there was the Mavericks and I had some team members who were, you know, around the area at the time and it was, it just kind of seemed like it would work out perfectly. I can get us send them over to, you know, a game and they'd be able to have some, some evening opportunity. And when I got there, it turned out that the way they advertised it suggested that as long as you joined, they would want to nurture you as a client.

[09:50.7]
So they would invite you, but in reality you had to sign paperwork that states that you would work with them before you get tickets. Wow. So I got the bait and switch. Right, wow. So people have that experience all the time, and that creates a distaste towards it or a distrust towards what you are pushing and pedaling, and creates a bit of a divide from where you expected the conversation to go.

[10:15.6]
And you never manage your expectations to begin with. So you kind of created this very awkward discussion that now results in no deal either way. Because nobody reads the fine print. Exactly, exactly. They're relying on you not reading the fine print to get you in that conversation.

[10:30.8]
Right, right, right. You know, I know you've also described your engagement strategy as one that builds relationships across multiple roles and stages. You know, I have a background that's in B2B marketing as well, so when you think about those hiring, the, the, the buying committees.

[10:47.5]
Right? Not the hiring committees, the buying committees. How does that show up in your content? How do you work across those different ICPs, let's say, to cohesively build that without using those traditional lead magnet tools? That's really challenging, honestly.

[11:03.7]
And it's almost like we're working, you know, they try to tell you to work smarter, not harder. But you know, sometimes when you're not utilizing the tools that everybody else is using, and there's nothing that comes out that kind of creates a game-changing divide around it. Right. It kind of makes it difficult for you to project.

[11:19.7]
Right. So for us it's difficult because like you said, the hiring committees and the buying committees are both the areas that we focus heavily on. So that's two different ICPs completely. Right. Who are both kind of bound by the same overall schematic budget.

[11:35.9]
But at the same time, they have their own worlds that they kind of live in on their own. Right. Where in the same vein, we also reach the talent market. And past that, the recruitment market is now one area we're going into as well. So it's hard to create so much organic content that people really are able to kind of sink their teeth into it and see, you know, a big mix and match.

[11:59.8]
But at the same time you have to tow that line carefully because you don't want to lose the interest of your audience. They may have followed you because of the concept of I'm a talent and I want work, but now you're only showing me content related to what to do to hire somebody when I'm not that person. Right. I can't really glean as many learnings from there.

[12:16.6]
So we have to tow that line very finely and it's differentiate or diversity in the content types. And we've just recently been, you know, focusing a little bit more on the content strategy around Bluesky, and X, formerly known as Twitter. Yep. And in addition to that, you know, looking at other ways that we can get into more forum based approaches like Reddit and as well as Stack Overflow because of our technology focus.

[12:42.3]
So it really is, we're looking at it more of a per channel basis at this point and that's how we're kind of approaching the marching order around there.

[12:55.1]
How are we going to pull on the heartstrings we need to pull onto and it all starts with where that person is most likely to find content. Right. You used to think that Google, Google was the only search bar out there and of course that's been quietly out seated over the years by Bing as well when you talk about another Microsoft product, but it's how the search bar has moved across all these different platforms and it's getting into this idea.

[13:20.2]
You sort of touched on this about a philosophical shift of moving from the era of one to many and moving into one to one at scale. Like one to one is different than one to one straight up one to one at scale is a bigger impact and I think that touches on this idea that organic media is a better long game approach than rented traffic.

[13:42.7]
What does that look like in execution across you and your clients? Yeah. So one thing I can say is that it's definitely a more sustainable approach in regards to budget. Right. Because once you're, until you're making hand over fist. Right. And then it's like, you know, the money flies in, money flies out.

[13:59.4]
And you know, it's all kind of something that you can recognize as sunk cost to begin with. Right. I mean it's something that's necessary for the trade to happen. Not necessary for us to, you know, spend the X, Y, and Z here because we know that our marketing works. And I guess to answer that question, it is a difficult line to tow.

[14:21.9]
Right. And it is difficult, I think, to focus on differentiating between the two worlds also in a way where you aren't confusing somebody because of how much overlap we have in each market. In the organic world, for us at least, we can at least recycle and test at a very cost effective way.

[14:45.3]
As long as we're improving consistently our engagement rates across channels. You know, we will get that feedback when we don't receive what we're expecting, especially when we figured out how to replicate it. Right. And I think that's the number one piece.

[15:00.6]
It's how often can you rinse, wash, and repeat a specific, process or set of tools before, you know, it becomes a little bit lackluster or a little bit slower to draw? And that's when you need to figure out, you know, a new strategy or a new way of looking at it.

[15:16.6]
So we're, right now we're revamping a lot of our branding or we're talking about opportunities to increase, you know, our creative assets and how we can get that moving quicker. And that's really, I think, where organic wins the world.

[15:32.0]
Right. You have to stop the scroll. And stopping the scroll is difficult when it recognizes you as a promotion because the person's gonna look at this and say, okay, ad fatigue next, and then they're gonna keep moving and they're not even gonna read what you said. But if you came with something that truly seemed like it would be impactful because you're not paying for it seems authentic and then you also offer value in that same world it's almost difficult to keep scrolling without giving it a quick look and read, even if it's a skim.

[16:03.7]
Right, right. So that gets into that idea of an evolution and audience life cycle. But it can be tough, I think, also to keep, keep content, to build that content engine and keep it relevant and responsive. Any ideas for, you know, scrappy agencies over the next year on how they can double down on that more, more effectively?

[16:27.3]
Yeah. So, you know, one thing I have to say that I recently heard from a podcast I was listening to that suggests that everybody always, especially in consumer goods, everybody's always like, let's go to TikTok. TikTok's where to be able to be at E Commerce.

[16:42.6]
Increase. Let's go to TikTok shop. Let's get it in. Right. That is so much easier said than done. And while TikTok is something that has been able to replicate, repeat, and help people scale, it's something that is its own beast.

[16:58.3]
Right. Videography is tough, and to land it correctly, it's even tougher. So it's not for everyone. Just because you're a beauty brand or a sneaker company or a lifestyle company in any type of fashion, it doesn't necessarily mean that TikTok shop's the way to go.

[17:14.3]
So you can't just kind of follow that wave. You have to continuously try to find opportunities that you can expand past that you can open up new doors and channels. I love it. That's incredible.

[17:31.0]
Sort of random question here: what's the last piece of paid media advice you completely ignored and we're glad you did. I, I'd honestly, I'd say the one that sticks with me the most and I don't know if it's the most impactful, but the one that sticks to me the most is don't be the founder who jumps on the advertisement with a cool car behind him and says, you can be this guy.

[17:56.4]
Right? You could be me if you listen to my five steps. Right. And it, it goes past then just that template blanket concept of, you know, you can be like me if you listen to these five steps, it's anything. Right? It's, you know, but it's that same first experience.

[18:12.3]
Don't. Because you have to come off as authentic. Don't just show up and be like, you could be rich if you joined Gaggle Social and you used it to our improve your services. Like that wouldn't go well with folks. That's not what they're looking for. I mean, everybody wants to make money. Everybody loves the opportunity to be rich, but at the same time, selling a concept that only seems like it worked for you, but that could also be something that I don't even know if that really worked for you.

[18:36.8]
Right? That could be a rented car. This could be your dad's car. This could be your uncle's car. Right? It could be your mom's car. It could be a car you walked by in a parking lot. Exactly. Yeah. Look at my Lamborghini. This could be you. If you follow my 10 steps, you know, to avoid anything that feels remotely like that is where you don't want to spend your ad dollars.

[18:58.6]
You want to try that out and see if it works? Do it organically, right? You will save money. And you know what, at least you may also get a whole lot of hits off of your be rich like me video, but at the same time your conversion rate is going to be 1%. Right.

[19:13.9]
And you know, you may get a 1,000...1%, you know, of that is not going to be enough for the amount of money that you use to advertise what that looked like. Right. You're going to have to get somebody to buy into something. You know, you really want them to feel like they kind of got the full deal or the full idea of what the deal is before you gave them the pitch.

[19:34.6]
Right, right. That's exactly right. And you know, thinking in this realm of marketing qualified leads versus sales qualified leads, that's something that I think we always need to continue to remind ourselves of, no matter what we're building. Yes, yes, I agree.

[19:51.5]
And you know what, to also focus on that, you know, sales led growth, that SLG world, right. I mean it's great for business to business folks or business to business companies to consider using their actual sales people or their marketing people in their content.

[20:12.0]
Those people have a specific energy about them. Whether that is in a picture. You could tell, right? You go on LinkedIn and you, you could tell the difference between finance heads profile picture and a director of sales profile picture.

[20:27.7]
It is night and day, right? They exhume a certain energy, they exhume a certain facade and they just because they've absorbed this energy type or this type of personality, they sell, and they know how to sell and that's really what makes it happen.

[20:45.6]
So their smile wins, right? Their countess, or the way that they speak wins and that wins deals and it's authentic. This person who's in my ad actually works for my company. And it makes you feel like you're getting a peek through a window that was created entirely by you.

[21:06.6]
Right. It makes people really, I feel like, move when I see we get the most success from shouting out our team members. Our team members are very active in the communities. When we shout them out, we get a ton of love because it feels real.

[21:24.2]
Versus I posted a picture of a, or we posted a picture of a, I don't know, an infographic, right? And it gets some. And then you post a shout out to somebody who's not part of your team and it gets none. So then you're like, okay, well it's obvious that people want to see who is helping to build and grow the team.

[21:41.4]
Right? That's exactly right. Jared, this was a fantastic real talk look into how paid ads are evolving and where founders need to slow down and think smarter before scaling louder. Where can folks learn more about Gaggle Social and get into your orbit?

[21:58.9]
Absolutely. So you can check us out on the web at www.gagglesocial.com. it's G A G G L E S O C I A l dot com. And you can also find us on LinkedIn, which is the channel that we're most active on right now, but we will be expanding that into other channels in the very near future.

[22:16.4]
But that is Gaggle Social tech networking and hiring on LinkedIn. And, you can find me at Jared Tang, on LinkedIn as well. And, I would love to talk to anybody who has questions about either what we do or anything about what we spoke about today as well, because my goal and philosophy is to help as many folks as we can in the long run, because paying forward gets us to pay back.

[22:40.8]
Right. I love it. And then, last question, Jared. For the founder who's addicted to ads but secretly knows that their funnel is broken, what's your one piece of hard won advice? That's a tough one. I would say that my one piece of hard advice when it comes to that realm is to take it slow when you're first starting off on your paid journey.

[23:10.1]
If you are getting involved in that, let's take it slow. One step at a time. Let's test our waters. Google Ad console and search can really only tell us so much, right? It can give us only the insights we need. It can give us only the tools that we need to succeed from their viewers.

[23:26.7]
We are the makers of that destiny, right? So we need to incrementally increase spends. We need to be careful about how we are spending that money, especially in an economy like we have today. It's only opportunity for it to go on the rise. So there's, you know, maybe at this point, there's a better opportunity for us to kind of hold close to our dollars and spend them, you know, sparingly as we need to.

[23:49.1]
And maybe in turn that'll help to kind of decrease the ad fatigue we have in the world and people will actually start listening to ads again. Sage advice, Jared. Thank you. Thanks for tuning into "Is Anything Real In Paid Advertising?", the show where we find the signal behind the noise.

[24:05.7]
I'm Adam W. Barney, subscribe, leave a review, and check the show notes below for more links back to Jared and Gaggle Social will be there. But Jared, thank you for joining today. Thanks so much for having me, Adam. It was a great time.